New invance rules discussion

[Entropy]

Well, there are a lot of complaints from players about other players doing invances, and some are valid others are not so valid. I will make a poll about it in a few days, but until then I want people to talk here about their expectations.

 

Basically, it all comes down to the exact definition of "help". The invance rules state you must help. Different people have different ideas about what help means.

In my view, I think helping means that you have to kill stuff, but not necessarily be reckless about it. That is, you don't have to fight monsters way over your level. On the other hand, I think you should not only fight monsters you can kill at little or no risk for you.

 

Similarly, there will be a question about gear. Do you have to bring your best gear (although not very breakable items), or is it OK to come dressed in less than your best (such as tit greaves, augmented leather torso)? The idea is that if you bring better gear you can fight more/higher level monsters.

 

You can debate those things here, and we'll vote for them in a few days. The result of the vote will probably be in the rules.

[Myd1]

As far as the armor requirement ima a little confused. Example for 80-100 invance, if someones best armor is steel and mine is ice dragon but i also have steel, am i aloud to use steel even though its not my best but other players best armor is steel? If not i disagree as to why i would have to risk more then others(even though i would always have a brick) speaking more on the principal of the matter.

[rutuliukas]

Hi all,

I would suggest is remove invance drops and make everyone to get equal reward after invance success (lets say 10k or 15k gc) coz most crys i see in channel usualy is "thous fkers earn big money with doing nothing, thous dont earn... bla bla bla...

 

armors is fine how it goes now, and about fighting-helping, verry few do nothing in real, like 2-5 persons i saw who fight just low mobs, all others is doing theyrs best to help each others

 

As usualy sorry for mistakes thx bb

 

EDIT: the first msg when i turned back from forums to game: [xxxxxxxx xxx xxx@ 6]: reaaly and most rangers spend more in invances and get less gc than the rest of u

Edited September 13, 2012 by rutuliukas

[FeaRM]

Speaking from the point of view of someone in the lower end of 100-120: If you're in the upper range of the invance you should fight, if you're in the lower range, fight what you can and help kill what you cant (ranging, harm, heal tank, etc). If you're in the middle of the range, play somewhere in between. As for armor, just dont come in augs or anything lower.

 

My 2 cents

Edited September 13, 2012 by FeaRM

[SenZon]

I'm a 120's what people call "mage" in EL due to my pickpoint placements. I do my part by killed stuff up to giants, most I can do do, risky enough for me, even too risky. I always tried making this a point to a lot of people, being 120s you get a very big disavantage due to most of these monsters ability to hit you for over 90 100% of the times (dragons and such do that to me). But in order for 120s to be helpful is I usually gather 1-3 120s with me and just gang stuff. After I see only Blue, Icy dragons and MBs left I just start remote healing people or interncepting monsters that will go to the rangers. So ways to help when you are on the low food chain of your range is make a group, stick together and if possible get Skype perk - can save you rostos if you do good team work.

 

My expectations ?:

• Just like was in the last update but maybe make it even more proportional Player : Monster (Possibly even if low amout of players add a decent amout of monsters) of if huge amount of people add more monsters (example morning ones usually last 10 minutes due to 40-60 people.
  

• A way to add more monsters could be diffrent waves? Instead of just adding +2,000 monsters.
  

• Not always that good gear = big help. You will see alot of people in dragon armors do less then guy in steel/titanium. Maybe not add huge restriction on armor? Lowest armor allowed steel?Weapon maybe a ti serp(good for tanking)?
  
• Add bigger monsters but not stupid (120-200 range)? Lets say Jegos but reduced drops.
  
• AFK - Ban
  

 

 

- Frost / SenZon

[nathanstenzel]

Helping could be providing fighting supplies, healing, ranging, summoning, killing monsters, offensive magic spells, guard duty.

 

For summoning, the summoning should not be done at the wrong time or someone that is not being attacked due to a tank may get attacked after the summon dies. If a person is fighting alone though, that summon could give them the distraction that they need to escape or heal.

 

Training arrows are of little help and should only be used for luring monsters. Shooting a monster with a training arrow when the monster is engaged by fighters that are doing ok is not useful. Causing the monster to flee due to shooting it while a fighter is about to die would be useful regardless of arrow type, but I am not sure if they ever flee when shot.

 

The lower level invances have a different level of armor that may be typical. Not too many newbs have pro gear. No invance should require you to risk more than steel or titanium gear. That would be ludicrous.

 

People who watch for monsters and actually announce them are useful, but just doing that is not useful enough to justify their presence.

 

A person that does guard duty and does not announce when monsters are near him that others are not taking care of are not nearly as useful as those that actually announce risks to the fort.

 

Harvesters and those that are AFK are not useful. A person should try to be useful at least 3/4 of the invance.

[Infamous]

in my opinion radu is right about helping, kill stuff but don't be reckless about it, no need to fight things way over your level.

gear on the other hand, i think steel set would be minimum. whether or not you have ice dragon if you got a steel set and want to use it go for it.

setting a gear requirement of "if you have better use it" will just lead to people saying "oh but that guy has ida set" and mods will have to confirm it somehow.

 

steel set isn't hard to obtain, and still a very good set of armor.

[rutuliukas]

oh right, and i strongly beleave some mods must be able to go invis (the uber invis i mean when even ts wont show them) and to have full time ts (the second part to implement i beleave not hard since we have mobs with full time ts) to be able wach how everyon is fighting and check for rule breakers (i have no idea how hard its to implement this stuff but it would be realy usefull for all invances and restricted invasions)

[Nova]

the number one thing that used to tick me off when I did invances were the people who stand afk at the gate when there are still 3 or 4 mobs left. even if you can't fight them, you can help look for them instead of going afk.

 

 

Hi all,

I would suggest is remove invance drops and make everyone to get equal reward after invance success (lets say 10k or 15k gc) coz most crys i see in channel usualy is "thous fkers earn big money with doing nothing, thous dont earn... bla bla bla...

 

I think this is a pretty good idea. I know the rangers get screwed out of a lot of drops because some tanks don't share. I don't think any ranger has ever gotten any share of blue dragon drops since they were added. As a ranger I would very rarely even cover the cost of arrows while tanks that had been heavily helped by rangers would walk off with 10, 20, 30k in profits.

[hussam]

I think it's very fair to require at least a iron plate/iron cuisses/iron greaves from someone 80+ a/d (maybe steel set for 100+). they can use the fur cape for cold protection.

When someone shows up in augmented top, they are asking for semi free experience.

Edited September 13, 2012 by hussam

[Aislinn]

My opinion:

Regarding gear:

If you don't "gear up" in really good stuff, you aren't going to be able to fight much. If you don't fight much, you aren't helping much.

If you don't "gear up" in really good stuff, you are going to die if you do your fair share of help. That's expensive and you still aren't helping much if you are spending the majority of your time coming back from the underworld. Plus, if you don't have a rosto, the people who ARE putting in their fair share of time do NOT have time to hunt for and save your deathbag, nor do they care much. (Other than newhope).

 

Regarding helping:

My definition is you do SOMETHING to help from start to finish of the invance. Melee, ranging, find the rat, summoning to kill, scouting by walking around the fort, gatekeeping. Hanging around doing nothing, doesn't matter where, should not be acceptable, regardless of which position in the range your levels are or if "only the too hard ones are left".

 

I have gone in the 100-120 both at the low end and top end of the range. There is no excuse to go and wear crap armor or hang around because they are too hard. Melee in a group works well. Very well. If you see 2 people fighing a nasp, go join them and HELP them. Stay with a group but for God's sake, HELP your fellow teammates. Ranging works well. Summons work well. Use stones. SO many options. "It's too hard" just does not cut it.

 

Regarding afk/not helping:

There is a difference technically between afk and not helping. End result wise, though, it is the same thing. Imo, it's no better to be standing around for 30 minutes because you shot the required 200 arrows early, or because the rest of the stuff "is too hard." You might as well go afk.

 

Regarding drops: sick of hearing it every night. I NEVER was given a share of anything. The only drops I got were a few feathers and 1k gc and that was a good day. Maybe get rid of the drops.

 

The reward is the huge amount of lump sum experience you get at the end. My expectations are you earn it, not go and watch others earn it for you. EL is not a welfare state. At least not yet.

[nathanstenzel]

Nova, I think it is good to have 3 folk who are not gate guard at the gate. Sometimes, the monsters come to the gate instead of being far from the gate. 3 AFK people near the gate = 3 possible rosto for Radu and a possible saved invance if the gate keeper can't kill the monster.

 

rutuliukas, I think the mods should be not be affected by movement restrictions and things should be able to pass through them while in....lets call it ghost mode. True invisibility for the duration of ghost mode should probably be a part of it. Nice start on the idea though.

 

I have to agree with Senzon's way to help as a mage and his idea that adding another wave of monsters would be the best way to go about adding more monsters. Multiple waves instead of 1 big wave would be a big improvement over the current situation of being near death at the start and then having to hunt for ages later on too. You would still have to hunt for the leftovers, but not have as much trouble at the start.

Edited September 13, 2012 by nathanstenzel

[Nova]

3 yes. 20? no that's just lazy and that is what happens in the 120-200. Also, I hate how people think in rostos for radu. Losing rostos sucks, especially now that the price is so damned high. What is fun about a game where you have to work for 2 or 3 days to have 1 hour of actual fun? I'm all for someone making money for the work they do, but when people have to start thinking in rostos to try to make something seem enticing, well that just sucks.

[GreyElf]

I only participated in 1 invance and we lost badly.

 

1. In any case I think that there should be some time before the monsters arrive where all fighters can discuss their roles and pair up into teams. This way everyone knows their responsibilities and what is expected. This discussion could take place inside the fort, thus representing the final count of fighters for a given invance. Much conflict can be avoided by clear communication beforehand.

 

2. Each level of invance should have a definite "best" armour. For example, 40-60 could be a full aug set; 100-120 could be a full steel set. The creatures released at each level should reflect the a/d levels and armour.

[vinoveritas]

As a ranger in the 120 200 invances i try allways to get 1 or 2 of the mb's just becauseits about the only creature you get a share from the melee fighters and depending on how many people are in the invance i am shooting between 300 and 600 arrows so spend between 10 and 20kgc on that allone for one invance. The MB's and blue dragons eare actually the only monsters where you can get good drops that are worth sharing have yet to see a tank who shares blue dragon drops.

 

The requirement for rangers to get a share of the mb, and the of course equally understandable wanting of others to get to the good drops and brining for just that cause, their bow with them. leaves holes in the game where other people fight ice dragons and so on but do not have the right support from rangers. Removing all drops, and adding a gc award would solve this. I am not greedy in this. if the award would be say 20kgc i would be happy as it would say i did not lose money or to much money as ranger.

 

I also would get rid of the time until rat xp gets valid. I was in one invance, where a few people decided to wait 2 more minutes to get the 25% extra is not worth the time and killed the last battled down dragon when most people who did the fighting stepped back so everyone gets the small extra reward. Its something like pissing on other especially those peoples head who are searching for the rat. I hear its now better due the fact that more monsters are added when more players are in invance but as people get higher in a/d the problem may rice again.

 

as for armour, i think it should be invance based low level instance should have augmented set as max armour a 120+ invance should be titanium set at least. but it allways depends on a player.and a ranger in augmented armor is as usefull as a melee in an ice dragon set.

[Schmurk]

Like some people said already, there are many ways to help during the invance if the mobs are too strong for you. You can heal people, summon stuff, range, protect the rangers... However, even if you have a low level, you can always try to find a team of people with who you can fight. And if someone is willing to tank biggest mobs, you can help by joining the fight.

 

For the armor, I think it's up to people to decide what they want to take but in general, if you don't want to be always attacked by mobs while being in a group, you'd better have the best armor you can.

 

Anyway, from my point of view, one of the biggest problem of the invances is the gcs because some people are greedy and want the drops for themselves so sometimes it totally screws the team work. Moreover, as a ranger, I don't find fair that some people get large amount of gcs with the help of rangers and then don't share what they get. Don't get me wrong though, I'm not saying that I want to get the money back from the arrows I used because I would not mind spending ~10kgc for all the exp I get in return. What I'm not finding fair is that some people get a lot of gcs whereas others spend a lot.

 

So I think that removing the drops from the invances would be an excellent idea. This way it'll be totally fair. But I don't think giving gcs to everybody at the end of the invance is a good idea because the experience reward is already more than enough.

 

However, I would go even further, I would put the invance map as non drop in order people are able to participate without the fear of losing a rosto BUT if you die during the invance, either you don't get any experience at the end or your experience reward is halved at each death.

 

Just my 2 cents.

[stinkyfeet]

My alt fogbowl goes to 80-100 as ranger it costs me roughly 8k a invance with arrows and rings, i dont get drops .I go for experience some people give me gc, and it muchly apreciated. Fogbowl has 0 human nexus so only wears augs but i think he helps alot in invance.

[groomsh]

I think that removing drops would do a big favor for all invancers, because some (lot?) of the high end invancers just go there to farm gc.

I usually go to invances as a tank and yeah a tank never (or VERY randomly) gets the drops. I have no problem with not earning anything in invance, but when you see people just standing around looking at you tanking a hard monster with just one fighter engaged, it's really discouraging.

 

Regarding the gate guard - i think that the current ruleset covers that really good. One gatekeeper and one archer is enough to hold the monsters in most cases. If you're in gate, use invis pots so the lurking monsters do not attack you etc...

If you can't hold the gate till some other players come, you're not a good gate keeper = don't do it. I really don't think that 3 people at gate are necessary, if yes it's just lack of tactics - when there is only one big group going straight to port (in 100-120) and leaving tons of trices/giants/naspas behind them, then it's not a good strategy - and yeah this happens a LOT in 100-120 ...

 

I think that lower end players should join fights even when hard monsters are being fought. Of course it requires some common sense, you'll not attack when 2 people are melee fighting a giant and nobody else is around.

[Elke]

However, I would go even further, I would put the invance map as non drop in order people are able to participate without the fear of losing a rosto BUT if you die during the invance, either you don't get any experience at the end or your experience reward is halved at each death.

I find that an excellent idea!

[Faxie]

Good armour

• Melee: titanium/steel
  
• Ranger: Recurve/Elven/Xbow
  

Minima:

• Ranger: current ap/level etc are perfect
  
• Mage: A minumum of Rationality/Level should be implemented (no experience myself with this class)
  

Resources:

• Rangers: current pka/bolts are fine
  
• Mages: A minumum of spells cast (harm/remote heal) should be set aswell
  

Drops: leave the drops, it adds a nice groupdynamic

 

Sharing: Volentary (adds to groupdynamic)

 

Helping:

• Melee: Attack solo what you can handle solo, try to help others attack. Standing and looking while doing nothing to help (unless out of mana and drinking ofc) shouldn't be allowed in any case. Unless you are told not to attack (could screw up tanking with higher monsters).
  
• Ranging: Try to stand as close as you can when shooting. If not the monster could flee and kill a fellow ranger. If you are told repeatedly do stand closer, and you don't react to it, I think a warning/ban would be in place.
  
• Mage: Heal tank, harm monster
  

With melee, some attention should be on the higher level players. They should stand up to the task and help others aswell. If you let the lower level tank all the time, you are just as wrong as a lower level not helping. That said, I think the difference between the lower and the higher players in 120-200 is too big and I hope there will be a re-evaluation of the possibility to split them up in 120-140 and 140-200.

 

About the sharing: I made a habbit of sharing my drops to rangers, and for some odd reason I always have ranger support when I am in 100-120. So if rangers want a share, help the people that share and don't help people that don't (don't forget to melee then cause else it would be a violation of the rules)

Edited September 13, 2012 by DonC

[Entropy]

1. In any case I think that there should be some time before the monsters arrive where all fighters can discuss their roles and pair up into teams. This way everyone knows their responsibilities and what is expected. This discussion could take place inside the fort, thus representing the final count of fighters for a given invance. Much conflict can be avoided by clear communication beforehand.

 

The fuck:??

[Zaer]

it's pretty easy to understand bro. give me a head up and i'll explain the part you're having trouble with

[elg3neral]

I didn't read all posts well, so srry if this is already mentioned.

 

The use of training arrows!

I use training arrows in invances, coze i believe the reason that rule was set up doesn't apply to me .

I rang in invances coze its great fun i dont stand on the wall i prefer to be in the middle of all the action.

I use pk arrows when its needed so most on giants. but killing drags esp. blue ones i prefer training arr,

My ranging skill is on that level that i can do enough damage with trainers.

 

My point is just re think the rule about the arrows use coze its not fair.

And i just dont want to spend my precious pk'ers on stuff that i never had or got any loot from.

With trainers i get the exp. that normaly get in the arena so in that way, its ok for me that i dont get any loot.

 

And if the use of trainers will be a problem then i just stop ranging and just stay with my ok meele skill.

Be semi'afk when only the drags are left just like the other fighters who can't tank the big mobs.

[Cabman]

Firstly, I can only speak about the lower lvl invances (40-60 to 80-100). From the discussion in numerous threads, I believe the 100-120 & 120+ have their own problems and dynamics and that anything that is modified needs to take into account ALL the invance levels, not just addressing the problems of the higher lvls.

 

 

40-60 & 60-80

• Armor & Weapons: "Run what you brung"
  
• Ranging: PK arrows
  
• Participation: Kill what you can!
  

 

At these levels, no one should be forced to grind to aquire top armor and weapons before being allowed to invance. I see these lvls as a learning experience for group tactics and dynamics. There are a lot of deaths and it simply isn't practical to expect those players to risk months of hard earned gc. There are also a huge number of lower level mobs that can be engaged by those at the lower end of the range, allowing them to help the group immensely, even if only wearing augs and brandishing an iron sword. Even at the top end of the range, most do not have no-fail and MD, so the boss mobs are still tough, but are usually well handled by the better equipped and better experienced players. Gate protection is a necessary job, and 3-4 lower levels milling around the gate can usually protect the gatekeeper until the higher lvl fighters can respond to help. I don't find this offensive as it allows the others to go out and sweep the map once the mobs near the fort have been cleared up.

 

The biggest problem at these levels are people who come to purposely do as little as possible for the exp and those that come to BJ, fleeing mobs, etc. Making BJ'ing in these invances a banable offence (invance-only ban or game ban) would solve 99% of the problems.

 

 

 

80-100

• Armor & Weapons: Decent armor and sword (augs for rangers is fine)
  
• Ranging: PK arrows
  
• Participation: Kill what you can!
  

At the 80-100 range, gc is easier to come by, so decent armor and weapons are not much of an issue for players and any exceptions to this are usually handled by the team itself (new invance players who only have steel chain, etc. happens occasionally, and are normally welcomed for their participation as we all like to see new people coming to invances). Others can be handled through the existing #abuse system. Until the upper level of the range, alot of the mobs are still very hard to kill. Low 80's a/d can't take being multied by clops and fluff and MCWs are hard to hit at all levels even with the multi penalty. There are still a lot of lions, hawks, clops, etc. that can be taken care of by those without top gear and lvls.

 

BJ'ing at this lvl & above is fine as long as people don't sabatoge. If you don't want to lose your gear, bring a rostogol stone. That's what they are for! AFK'ing is already handled in the current rules, and I don't see much of it at this lvl. Again, the #abuse command works.

 

 

Cabman

[Raz]

In invance I start by fighting anything I can and when down to the drags switch to ranging.

I always go in full Ice set and take elven and PKers

 

I rarely get to see the Mares - tending to shoot more the dragons.

 

I do not mind that the gc spent on the arrows is a loss - the exp at the end more than makes up for it.

 

What I do not like are the people who just give up once the easy stuff is done and sit at the gate waiting for the exp. There can easily be 15-20 people at the end.

In the last invance - one 'fighter' on seeing me take out a pinned dragon commented 'waste of gc' - and then refused to shoot as he was out of arrows - and would not restock.

After the Icy died - I was able to leave - restock with a full load of PKers return and shoot most of them.