The Bronze Sword

[korrode]

(In this post i will discuss weapon damage without considering the protection or negatives to heat and cold damage that is offered by some armors, as those factors generally shouldn't be taken into account in initial weapon development, as it's up to an individual to make a strategic armor (or spell) choice VS their opponents weapon)

 

IIRC, the Bronze Sword was originally designed to be a kind of poor-man's Thermal Serp.

Those that cannot afford the US$90/300kgc+ price tag could effectively rent-a-therm; getting the effect of a Therm Serp in their fights, but only for a brief period (i.e. high breakrate).... which, imo, was a great idea.

 

This considered, the issue is that the Bronze Sword even for it's original purpose, is overpowered.

 

The bonuses to accuracy and crits are the same for both weapons, but lets look at the difference in the damage inflicted by the Therm Serp VS the Bronze Sword:

 

Therm Serp:

- 20-28 physical damage

- 10 cold damage

- 10 heat damage

 

(This equates to an effective 40-48 damage.)

 

Bronze Sword:

- 50-70 physical damage

 

So, our end result is 40-48 damage VS 50-70 damage. Quite a big difference. The maximum damage of the Therm doesn't even match the minimum damage of the Bronze Sword.

 

So, my suggestion is: Change the Bronze Sword to inflict 40-50 damage, rather than 50-70.

 

EDIT: In addition, when you consider that there are armors with significant heat protection and that the heat and cold shield spells offer bigger bonuses than the normal shield spell, imo this change is even more warranted. The Bronze Sword even reduced to 40-50 damage will still be a notably more damaging weapon, in many cases.

Edited September 1, 2008 by Korrode

[Tauren]

Once you use a bronze sword in battle, more than likely it will be lost after a few minutes of combat. Many wouldn't bother with this sword because - even though it is cheap compared to the therm serp - the likelihood that it wont live to see the light of day is enough to turn their heads right away from it.

IMO the bronze sword is good the way it is, and if you are up to the cost of destroying one for a few swings of it, then by all means use it and take advantage of its beneficial damage infliction.

[korrode]

Changed the break rate of the bronze sword to 1/25 (from 1/10)

With my NMT perk that's, on average, ~100 swings until it breaks... i wouldn't call it "a few swings"

 

...but irrelevant of how many swings it lasts for, i simply don't agree with your argument. You're saying that just because the imbalance lasts only briefly, that makes it ok... i disagree.

Edited September 1, 2008 by Korrode

[conavar]

If the dmg is reduced to be more inline with a Therm serp, then the breakrate should be reduced to reflect this.But apart from that (as someone who use's a bronze) then Im fine with the suggestion

[korrode]

Any suggestions on a new specific break rate Con?

 

Therm serp is US$90/~360kgc, how long do u expect to get out of a weapon thats just as good (if not better) for only 20kgc?

 

EDIT: Bronze Sword is 1/18th the price of Therm serp, so i guess 18 times more likely to break is fair?

(which would probably be quite a bit better than 1/25 breakrate)

Edited September 1, 2008 by Korrode

[conavar]

Any suggestions on a new specific break rate Con?

 

Not asking to make it uber unbreakable, but for the loss of dmg if the break rate is now 1/25 then making it 1/35 or 1/40 seems fair trade off

[Tauren]

Changed the break rate of the bronze sword to 1/25 (from 1/10)

With my NMT perk that's, on average, ~100 swings until it breaks... i wouldn't call it "a few swings"

 

...but irrelevant of how many swings it lasts for, i simply don't agree with your argument. You're saying that just because the imbalance lasts only briefly, that makes it ok... i disagree.

And why do you think Ent has made this change? Obviously because of the such high break rate, many players would rather save up for the therm serp or something nearly as powerful than spend many multiples of 20k's to have a few extra-strong swords that would break so often (considered as an expensive renting option).

The NMT is irrelevant here as that is a bonus option if the fighter wants to take it. It also applies to the break rate of the therm serp so once again, lets leave that out of here

Power isn't the only thing that plays a role here. The swords are also chosen based on their visual appeal, and the therm serp beats that to the punch hands down.

 

And how could I possibly persuade you to agree with me that the imbalance that lasts only for a short period is worth having in the game. I guess I can't because it all depends on what your views are and what you value. Of course it also depends on which end to the sword you've been on and how you've experienced handling the sword as well. Being killed many times to the bronze sword and having it break after the first two shots in your hand would make anyone lose their morale and loyalty to the sword

 

My choice still stands, the stats are ok the way they are.

[korrode]

Well i'm not looking to debate with you any further, we simply have a difference of opinion as to what is and what isn't important, and how things should be.

But i will say that i try to never make suggestions based on any emotional responses that are a result of my own in-game experiences.

 

I use some items in-game that i think should be removed, because i have to to remain competitive, doesn't mean i think those items are good for the game.

 

EDIT:

And ya if the bronze sword stays as it is i'll 2 hit newbs with bronze+ice arrow cause i want their PKi

...too bad those newbs may decide that PK isn't worth it as a result :\

Edited September 1, 2008 by Korrode

[Hannibal]

Honestly, I do think the bronze sword is overpowered; but also fair.

At its price range, I think it does enough damage for the risk. Its not like you see the bronze sword being used much as it is; maybe once a day?

I wouldn't use the bronze sword if the damage changed.

[asgnny]

And ya if the bronze sword stays as it is i'll 2 hit newbs with bronze+ice arrow cause i want their PKi

...too bad those newbs may decide that PK isn't worth it as a result :\

How about just removing the ability to abuse the arrows (in melee combat)? Thinking logically, how much sense does it make to do an extra 40 damage because you have a quiver on your back?

[robotbob]

It cannot be considered to be a 'poor mans' thermal serp, because it

does not have any cold or fire damage. Its at best a poor mans

BoD, the break rate replacing the percentage to do massive damage.

(Therm is affected by -/+ heat cold modifiers, so against steel, Ive done 70+ hits)

 

Its a coup de grâce weapon. I could understand your complaint(s),

if this weapon had a break rate of great swords, but like the BoD, you

are paying for the chance of doing massive damage in a short period of time.

 

(To answer the obvious reply, BoD has a red cape for defense:

Bone of Death does not have extremely high break stats either.)

 

So if this weapon now has 40-50 damage you have successfully created a

fragile Halberd (40-55 damage), with a few plus modifiers. Basically a weapon

no one will use.

 

The bronze sword is even called a "PK" weapon. PvP in most games is considered

Player vs Player combat with or without weapons. Player Killing on the other hand was never

meant to be fair. PKing is about killing and not a long drawn out PvP

taking 5-6 minutes.

 

You have to pick, As fair as I can tell, you want PK removed from the game.

You essentially want combat level dependant PvP with the possiblity of reward

at the end, with very little risk. IMHO so many EL players have a distorted

view of PvP and PK because of the words misuse in this game.

 

And to argue that 'newbs' are in grave danger from this weapon, is silly. They are

at equal risk to a star med\Halberd, etc (Make a graduated pk map for this, levels

depending on how large an ad gap can fight each other.)

 

So in closing, you better get your Pom-Poms ready, you're going to need them

when you see the Scythe's stats.

[bigkav]

Bronze sword is over powered very much so, discourages me to PK when i have 2-3 ppl gang me with bronze+ice arrow or bronze in itself, just a free brick to the castle rly; or 4 hours of harvesting to get it back >.<

Not fun at all.

[Wizzy]

And ya if the bronze sword stays as it is i'll 2 hit newbs with bronze+ice arrow cause i want their PKi

...too bad those newbs may decide that PK isn't worth it as a result :\

How about just removing the ability to abuse the arrows (in melee combat)? Thinking logically, how much sense does it make to do an extra 40 damage because you have a quiver on your back?

 

I agree, this doesnt make any sense at all to do extra damage with an arrow on your back.

[Infamous]

who owned you with one Korrode?

[robotbob]

{Warning: Epic Post, may cause drowsiness, don't operate heavy machinery after reading}

 

Bronze sword is over powered very much so, discourages me to PK when i have 2-3 ppl gang me with bronze+ice arrow or bronze in itself, just a free brick to the castle rly; or 4 hours of harvesting to get it back >.<

Not fun at all.

 

Forgive me, but I just want to underline problem in-game over the terms

of PvP and PK. (please don't feel I'm attacking you)

"discourages me to PK when i have 2-3 ppl gang me"

 

In this example, you are not Pking, you're being PK'd. It is understandable, in "PK" to be

discouraged from Player Killing, by dying to a PK team.

 

However if you are REALLY looking for Player vs Player combat, and are interrupted by a

PK team, that is another story and more about the games combat mechanics than a single weapon.

 

Now I don't mean all PvP is safe, and not to the death, its more about combat fun

and less about 1..2..3.. boom dead, pick up drop next!~!~11

"just a free brick to the castle rly; or 4 hours of harvesting to get it back >.<"

 

This also has little to do with the power of a single weapon, but more about "time to acquire in-game items".

 

If I took 20 minutes instead of 4 hours, would the weapon matter as much?

 

 

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(off topic, humor me pul-leaze, feel free to just ignore this, since it really needs to be in suggestions, maybe later)

I think at some point, there needs to be a distinction between PvP and PK. In EL, PvP has really

come to mean, "boxing (or using a very weak weapon in some cases) for hours on end, in order to gain experience

in mainly defense, with a marginal gain in attack experience"

 

(I so need to make a consolidated suggestion post don't I )

Perhaps one way to fix these problems and Kill Boxing PvP in a guild map forever is:

 

experience in Attack, Range, Magic could changed by the amount of damage applied to the target.

(Not sure about the math of it, but harder you hit, more exp, no more bunnies slapfests)

Perhaps defense could be governed by the amount of damage avoided or absorbed.

 

This would mean a 90ad person or a 40 ad could perhaps "train" in trolls with an OS and

be rewarded somewhat equally. Harm and offensive spells would end up giving more exp, than hours

of mana draining in the safe guild map. The same is true for range, bigger money sink since

Ice Arrows would cost a lot but give maximum experience.

 

Or maybe its a totally dumb idea ( it may make it easier for those dirty newbs (eww ), but it

would make it fun, I'd rather range\harm monsters for experience, than mana drain\Range Pvp

a person in a clickfest ping pong.

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[korrode]

@asgnny/wizzy

I agree, the arrow damage being applied to melee wep needs to go.

 

@Hardcore

Like i said in an earlier post, i don't make suggestions based on emotional responses from in-game experiences.

No one has owned me with a bronze sword (or at least, not recently, that i can remember)

 

@robotbob

Much of what you've said is spot on, and what's often no realised with my suggestions is that a lot of them are 'band-aid' fixes because the real solution that i already suggested never got implemented'. I would still rather see 'band-aid' solutions than none at all.

 

About the Bronze Sword becoming a Halberd:

The 7 accuracy, 5 crit-hit, 6 crit-dmg and 8 defense are significant. You cant call it a "fragile Halberd", imo.

 

You said the newbs are at equal risk to Halberd+Stars, i disagree. It's not equal, there's still an increased 10 minimum damage and 15 maximum damage, it's significant. Add into that the fact you cant equip an Ice Arrow with a Halberd, and the difference is huge. (Which Ent is well aware of people using arrows in this way, and when people complained, his solution was to further lower their accuracy neg (which wont help someone significantly weaker than you)... but, in the server update where the Bronze Sword was added, he said the stats may well change, so i figured it was more likely he'd change Bronze Sword stats than stop the quiver effect).

 

I don't want "PK removed from the game", Halberd+Stars is still a devastating newb killing combo. I'm certainly not asking for that to change.

I would very much like to see it made so people can have fights with others around their own strength, because i believe that would be the biggest step in getting more people into PK (and this was illustrated by a recent poll i ran, and a recent thread run by someone else).

Although i don't want to see "PK" removed from the game, i would happily sacrifice it in exchange for an extremely active "weight-class" fighting scene.

See, i dont actually want to wipe away newbs with a Halberd. I want to have a fight with someone of near equal strength and kill them using skill, not due the fact i've spent more mind-numbing hours on a fluffy spawn than they have.

 

In regard to the potential for the exp gaining system being changed:

I would love to see fight based exp, as opposed to hit/dodge based exp... weapons brought to training... and i suggested something about it a long time ago now. The developers seemed uninterested and other members of the community told me effectively 'this is how EL is, if u dont like the hit/dodge exp gain method, you should find another game'... so yeah, i agree with you, and it could help to fix some of the problem... but it got suggested and wasn't implemented, and i wont stop suggesting 'band-aid' solutions instead, cause some kind of solution is better than none.

[robotbob]

I said "fragile Halberd (40-55 damage), with a few plus modifiers."

Well it doesn't make it worth 1/25 with your stats, it no longer serves its purpose.

its still very fragile, and now, with those stats, a normal weapon.

 

Why are you replying to a statement I made months ago with the, 'band-aid solutions' comment?

You referred to it 3 times in this post and I made no reference in my current post.

Its bizarre you are replying to that now, after this much time has passed.

 

I am with you on promoting 'game' balance, but removing\altering one weapon will not fix it.

Its designed to do massive damage and kill people and what you want is combat level PvP.

 

I don't know what experience you have with other games of this type, but there is a difference

between the duels between ~approx equal combat level players and PK. Entropy has stated before, and

I thought he was joking, there are going to be NUKES, in game. They will wipe out an entire map for 250k+

one use and you are worried about 20 more damage on a fragile sword?

 

Seriously, when you see the scythes stats:

(Imagine a BoD and a Halberd in one , you're going to faint)

 

'this is how EL is, if u dont like the [iNSERT COMPLAINT], you should find another game'

 

This is true for all suggestions that are not, new ideas, but complaints about the current game mechanics.

[korrode]

Seriously, when you see the scythes stats:

(Imagine a BoD and a Halberd in one , you're going to faint)

I've seen the Scythe's stats

10-45 damage, +4 accuracy, to hit, to damage, 1% chance to do 150 damage

 

Low minimum damage, 10 lower than halberd's max dmg, only 1% BoD effect chance.

It's fine, i didnt faint.

 

And anyways, if Ent's not interested in ensuring having balanced Melee fights is an option, that's fine.

Another solution has already begun to present itself.

Edited September 2, 2008 by Korrode

[Michic0_oL]

why not swap thermal serp and bronze sword damage weapons more expensive should be stronger... Thermal serp is supposed to be "T3h Uber 1337 weapon" but with the dragon armor ingame it just sucks, Luciferx and I were testing some stuff... he was hitting @ 11 on me with his thermal serp i was in full tit and damaged cuisses..., my def was even tsed -19... i think baddude was hitting me for 7s or so, and yet, i was only wearing red dragon set + some spells.

Edited September 2, 2008 by Michic0_oL

[conavar]

why not swap thermal serp and bronze sword damage weapons more expensive should be stronger... Thermal serp is supposed to be "T3h Uber 1337 weapon"

 

and give the therm the same 1/25 break rate as a bronze sword, because without that trade off which the bronze has now the therm would be to powerful imo.

high damage for high break rate

[Michic0_oL]

why not swap thermal serp and bronze sword damage weapons more expensive should be stronger... Thermal serp is supposed to be "T3h Uber 1337 weapon"

 

and give the therm the same 1/25 break rate as a bronze sword, because without that trade off which the bronze has now the therm would be to powerful imo.

high damage for high break rate

but pay 90 usd / 350k gc or so to hit @ 10 sucks a bit, better use something else... there is too much heat and cold protection on armors for thermal serp to be good.

[conavar]

why not swap thermal serp and bronze sword damage weapons more expensive should be stronger... Thermal serp is supposed to be "T3h Uber 1337 weapon"

 

and give the therm the same 1/25 break rate as a bronze sword, because without that trade off which the bronze has now the therm would be to powerful imo.

high damage for high break rate

but pay 90 usd / 350k gc or so to hit @ 10 sucks a bit, better use something else... there is too much heat and cold protection on armors for thermal serp to be good.

 

true,so maybe instead of giving therm bronze dmg , instead of plus cold and heat dmg it does now, it should do a differant kind of dmg,say radiation for example which isnt protected against by dragon armours.

imo anyway dragons armours should be strong agaisnt one type of dmg but weak against the opposite

 

ie red dragon armour has plus 4 heat protection, so to me it only makes sense to have minus 4 cold protection... might also make the other types of magical serps more used

[korrode]

ya, i was also thinking of suggesting that fire and ice serp's get the amount of elemental dmg they do increased.

 

~18 cold dmg on ice serp would make it worth buying

Edited September 2, 2008 by Korrode